About flamerobin

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About flamerobin

Bugzilla from ogiannhs@yahoo.gr
I dont know if this has ever been raised before but wouldn't it be very
useful if flamerobin was developed in Java? Is there a good reason not
to? Because as I see it, since we want to have flamerobin for every
platform wouldn't it be wiser to have it in Java and have it available
for every platform that java runs on, without additional coding. I
believe for such an application the overhead introduced isn't a problem.
I wouldn't even think of moving fb to java, but flamerobin is an ideal
candidate for such a move.
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Re: About flamerobin

Kjell Rilbe
I might be wrong, but last I looked, Java was far from light-weight when
it comes to GUI-rich applications. And, FR is supposed to be light-weight.

Kjell

Yannis Tsopokis wrote:

> I dont know if this has ever been raised before but wouldn't it be very
> useful if flamerobin was developed in Java? Is there a good reason not
> to? Because as I see it, since we want to have flamerobin for every
> platform wouldn't it be wiser to have it in Java and have it available
> for every platform that java runs on, without additional coding. I
> believe for such an application the overhead introduced isn't a problem.
> I wouldn't even think of moving fb to java, but flamerobin is an ideal
> candidate for such a move.
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Re: About flamerobin

Milan Babuskov-5
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from ogiannhs@yahoo.gr
Yannis Tsopokis wrote:
> I dont know if this has ever been raised before

About 2 years ago.

 > Is there a good reason not to?

Many. I will not go into a language flame-war here, but I discarded the
Java for this project a long time ago. So, one of the reasons is that at
least 1/3 of main developers are against it, and won't write a single
line of Java code for FlameRobin. <g>

> Because as I see it, since we want to have flamerobin for every
> platform

We already do have it for Windows, Linux, MacOSX and FreeBSD. Solaris
port would be very easy to make, we just need to find someone who uses
Solaris and can spare some time to try it out. Are you running something
else?

> wouldn't it be wiser to have it in Java and have it available
> for every platform that java runs on, without additional coding.

There isn't much additional coding as it is now. I ported FR to FreeBSD
in a day or something.

> I
> believe for such an application the overhead introduced isn't a problem.

Unfortunatelly, I believe it would. Waiting 15 seconds for JRE to start
is far from my understanding of lightweight. Many times I just open FR,
run a quick query and close it. That would be hard to do with java version.

> I wouldn't even think of moving fb to java, but flamerobin is an ideal
> candidate for such a move.

Why do you find it ideal?

There is no missing functionality. There are no developers standing in
the line, hardly waiting to contribute their Java code. And, Sun surely
won't give us the "covert of the year" award. In fact, I don't see a
single reason to switch to it.

--
Milan Babuskov
http://fbexport.sourceforge.net
http://www.flamerobin.org



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Re: About flamerobin

Bugzilla from ogiannhs@yahoo.gr
In reply to this post by Kjell Rilbe
I believe that this is not the case now. Maybe you haven't look at java
for a long time (which version have you looked at?). For such
applications (front-ends) java is a very good option. I believe there
might be an issue with ibpp (you can use a c/c++ library from java but
do we want it?) but the gain is big. You support many platforms, you
don't depend on a third party widget (if we want to support a platform
wxWidgets does not support what happens?), on the other hand java runs
on virtually any platform (ok, I run linux, but just think of it the
same source code with no modifications runs on everything, what I can
think now is my pocketpc which will run a java application
out-of-the-box -just recompile-).

Kjell Rilbe wrote:

> I might be wrong, but last I looked, Java was far from light-weight when
> it comes to GUI-rich applications. And, FR is supposed to be light-weight.
>
> Kjell
>
> Yannis Tsopokis wrote:
>
>> I dont know if this has ever been raised before but wouldn't it be
>> very useful if flamerobin was developed in Java? Is there a good
>> reason not to? Because as I see it, since we want to have flamerobin
>> for every platform wouldn't it be wiser to have it in Java and have it
>> available for every platform that java runs on, without additional
>> coding. I believe for such an application the overhead introduced
>> isn't a problem. I wouldn't even think of moving fb to java, but
>> flamerobin is an ideal candidate for such a move.

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Re: About flamerobin

Bugzilla from ogiannhs@yahoo.gr
In reply to this post by Milan Babuskov-5
Milan Babuskov wrote:

> Yannis Tsopokis wrote:
>
>> I dont know if this has ever been raised before
>
>
> About 2 years ago.
>
>  > Is there a good reason not to?
>
> Many. I will not go into a language flame-war here, but I discarded the
> Java for this project a long time ago. So, one of the reasons is that at
> least 1/3 of main developers are against it, and won't write a single
> line of Java code for FlameRobin. <g>

Ok, I dont care about the language flame-war, if that is the case it is
ok, but i think maybe now java should be re-evaluated.

>
>> Because as I see it, since we want to have flamerobin for every platform
>
>
> We already do have it for Windows, Linux, MacOSX and FreeBSD. Solaris
> port would be very easy to make, we just need to find someone who uses
> Solaris and can spare some time to try it out. Are you running something
> else?

I run linux (and sometimes windows). Some platforms I can think that are
of much interest, is 64-bit windows/linux and maybe pocketpc. But my
point is that you needn't care for that if you have java.

>
>> wouldn't it be wiser to have it in Java and have it available for
>> every platform that java runs on, without additional coding.
>
>
> There isn't much additional coding as it is now. I ported FR to FreeBSD
> in a day or something.
Ok, but if there isn't wxWidget for some platform you can't port it.

>> I believe for such an application the overhead introduced isn't a
>> problem.
>
>
> Unfortunatelly, I believe it would. Waiting 15 seconds for JRE to start
> is far from my understanding of lightweight. Many times I just open FR,
> run a quick query and close it. That would be hard to do with java version.

This is not the case anymore. This was usual in jre1.0 and 1.1 but with
jre 1.4 startup times are almost not noticable.


>> I wouldn't even think of moving fb to java, but flamerobin is an ideal
>> candidate for such a move.
>
>
> Why do you find it ideal?
Because it is a front-end application that doesn't require cpu intensive
operations. Furthermore memory handling would not be a problem.


> There is no missing functionality. There are no developers standing in
> the line, hardly waiting to contribute their Java code. And, Sun surely
> won't give us the "covert of the year" award. In fact, I don't see a
> single reason to switch to it.

I don't say Flamerobin must be converted to Java, but I just express my
opinion. Of course you decide, you have done the coding all that time,
I haven't contributed a single line of code to flamerobin, but it is a
project that is of very big interest to me (I wish I have some spare
time soon to contribute to it).



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Re: About flamerobin

Nando Dessena
Yannis,

YT> I think maybe now java should be re-evaluated.

with many thousands of lines of code already written, a small but
growing user base, C++ skills acquired, development environments all
set up we should think about switching languages for ... what?
BTW we write very javish code in FR. ;-)

YT> I run linux (and sometimes windows). Some platforms I can think that are
YT> of much interest, is 64-bit windows/linux and maybe pocketpc. But my
YT> point is that you needn't care for that if you have java.

You needn't care if you don't have prospect users on that platform
either, which applies to FR and the platforms you mention ATM.
Also, you needn't if you don't have developers, which is a situation
very likely if FR would go the Java route. :-)

>> Why do you find it ideal?
YT> Because it is a front-end application that doesn't require cpu intensive
YT> operations.

And would that be a reason? "It can, so it should"?

YT>  Furthermore memory handling would not be a problem.

We don't have problems handling memory.

YT> I don't say Flamerobin must be converted to Java, but I just express my
YT> opinion. Of course you decide, you have done the coding all that time,
YT> I haven't contributed a single line of code to flamerobin, but it is a
YT> project that is of very big interest to me (I wish I have some spare
YT> time soon to contribute to it).

You're welcome. :-)

Ciao
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http://www.flamerobin.org



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Re: About flamerobin

Bugzilla from ogiannhs@yahoo.gr
i saw the source code and it was one of the things that made think of
java. Since I don't see anyone else agreeing with me on that, I think
there is no reason to go with it. This doesn't mean I changed my mind.



Nando Dessena wrote:
> with many thousands of lines of code already written, a small but
> growing user base, C++ skills acquired, development environments all
> set up we should think about switching languages for ... what?
> BTW we write very javish code in FR. ;-)
>
> YT> I run linux (and sometimes windows). Some platforms I can think that are
> YT> of much interest, is 64-bit windows/linux and maybe pocketpc. But my
> YT> point is that you needn't care for that if you have java.
>

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Re: About flamerobin

Milan Babuskov-2
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from ogiannhs@yahoo.gr
Yannis Tsopokis wrote:
> I run linux (and sometimes windows). Some platforms I can think that are
> of much interest, is 64-bit windows/linux and maybe pocketpc. But my
> point is that you needn't care for that if you have java.

I wasn't aware that there is Firebird verions for pocketpc?

FlameRobin does run on 64bit machines, and it is probably portable to
Windows CE (if there is a Firebird client library for it).

>> There isn't much additional coding as it is now. I ported FR to
>> FreeBSD in a day or something.
>
> Ok, but if there isn't wxWidget for some platform you can't port it.

Mind you, Java is not ported to more platforms than wx. With wx, you
have to source code to ajdust or build a new port. With Java, you have
to beg/pay Sun to do it for you.

>> Unfortunatelly, I believe it would. Waiting 15 seconds for JRE to
>> start is far from my understanding of lightweight. Many times I just
>> open FR, run a quick query and close it. That would be hard to do with
>> java version.
>
> This is not the case anymore. This was usual in jre1.0 and 1.1 but with
> jre 1.4 startup times are almost not noticable.

I am talking about JRE 1.4. Up until recently I used jEdit as main
textual editor for programming, so I know what I'm talking about. I have
computers with 128 and 256 MB of ram, both Pentium 3. And it *is* slow.

>> Why do you find it ideal?
>
> Because it is a front-end application that doesn't require cpu intensive
> operations

I don't see this as an argument why we should prefer Java over C++ or
Python for example.

> Furthermore memory handling would not be a problem.

It isn't much of a problem currently either. Do you see a memory
management problem somewhere in our code? Can you elaborate how would
Java help us over C++ there?

> I don't say Flamerobin must be converted to Java, but I just express my
> opinion. Of course you decide, you have done the coding all that time,
> I haven't contributed a single line of code to flamerobin, but it is a
> project that is of very big interest to me (I wish I have some spare
> time soon to contribute to it).

Well, I don't see a jFlameRobin any time soon. I'm sorry if it sounds
harsh, but Java doesn't seem well suited for this project. (BTW, I've
just read on some newsgroups that there are some issues with FreeBSD
version of JRE, so we might actually lose that port). Anyway, this was
discussed much more in the begining, if you're interested, look at
mailing list archives of fbmanager project at sourceforge.

--
Milan Babuskov
http://www.flamerobin.org



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Re: About flamerobin

Michael Hieke-2
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from ogiannhs@yahoo.gr
Yannis,

Yannis Tsopokis wrote:

> I run linux (and sometimes windows). Some platforms I can think that
> are of much interest, is 64-bit windows/linux and maybe pocketpc.

Work is underway to fix remaining issues with wx in 64-bit Windows and
Linux.  But in any case, there is absolutely no benefit in having FR in
a 64-bit version, while there are a lot of drawbacks.  You might want to
  google for Mac OS X and 64-bitness.  A lot has been written about the
fact (and the reasons for it) that the kernel of Mac OS X 10.4 is
available in a 64-bit version, while the whole GUI stayed 32-bit.

There are also efforts to port wx to several portable platforms.
Biggest problems for those is the adaptation of the UI to the limited
screen space and the limits of the input devices.  Let's face it, a
smartphone or similar device just isn't a great tool to work with a tool
like FlameRobin.

In conclusion, none of those are compelling reasons against wx.

Thanks

--
Michael Hieke


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