Template to-do list

[Nando Dessena]

Hello,
I have gathered current template loose ends in a list. I have most
probably forgot something. Anyway, here it is. I think that for a
release we need to have points A, B and C, and that it would be nice to
have the others as well, someday.

Does everyone agree with the points and their order? Note that I'm not
saying I am going to work on these immediately, but I'll try to do my
best to do work and assist others.

A) Allow a SQL template to be associated with any type of object, not
only tables (allow collections and database nodes as well) (partly done).
- Add overrides of getTypeName() for "TABLE_COLLECTION" and the like.
- Split conf files: template caption, menu position and object name/type
filter should go with the template in a read-only .conf file, persistent
params should go in a different .conf file in some user-writable folder.
- In any case stop writing .conf files in the template folders, which
may not be writable.

B) Streamline default/sample templates currently provided under
sql-templates, and have the menu contain user templates as well.

C) Create documentation about the available template commands and their
params, for different types of templates (at least SQL templates).
- Basic command documentation is currently in the source code.

D) Support user overrides also for HTML templates.

E) Re-implement the "relation_columns" setting type as an embedded
frame, not a popup dialog.
- Also for selectable stored procedures ("sp_columns"?).

F) Use the template system instead of hard-coded SQL generation in
various places of FR. Create a sys-sql-templates folder with well-known
files that the user can override (on a file-by-file basis) by putting
same named files in a same named folder under his home.

G) Support non-SQL templates for database-driven code generation.
Actually already supported in practice, just needs to be made easier.
- Allow other file extensions (at least .txt or anyway a single
extension that means "not SQL"; maybe .template?).
- Allow to specify that output should not go to the SQL window but a
file (or many files); maybe add some {%set_output:<spec>%} command, or
use system variables.
--

Nando Dessena


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[Michael Hieke]

On 05.05.2011 19:10, Nando Dessena wrote:

> - Split conf files: template caption, menu position and object name/type
> filter should go with the template in a read-only .conf file, persistent
> params should go in a different .conf file in some user-writable folder.
> - In any case stop writing .conf files in the template folders, which
> may not be writable.

I have committed code to that effect.  It's far from perfect, especially
seeing how far you want to take the feature, but it is probably good
enough for 0.9.4.

> B) Streamline default/sample templates currently provided under
> sql-templates, and have the menu contain user templates as well.

Agreed with the first part, not with the second, but more on that below.

> C) Create documentation about the available template commands and their
> params, for different types of templates (at least SQL templates).
> - Basic command documentation is currently in the source code.

Definitely.

For all later points yes (for some more so than for others), but please
not now.  Let's stop adding features and get 0.9.4 out first.


The whole template feature has promise, but it needs to be implemented
well to deliver on that.  IMHO the current access to the sql templates
(submenu in the object context menu) is totally inadequate, even with
the measly 7 that are currently there for a table.  I don't know what
the UI could look like, but it should be searchable, and informative
texts to describe them should be possible.  A power user could well have
dozens of them for their every day tasks.

I also don't think the PreferencesDialog in its current form is fit as
the UI, it's painfully obvious that it was made for a different purpose
and has been (mis-)appropriated for this feature (to name only a few: it
isn't centered on the parent frame, it shares size and position with the
global preferences dialog, the left margin is way too large and shows
that the tree view is still there but has width 0).

Thanks

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[Milan Babuskov-4]

I completely agree with everything Michael wrote. I don't have much to
add or remove.

Maybe just one idea:

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Michael Hieke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> IMHO the current access to the sql templates
> (submenu in the object context menu) is totally inadequate, even with
> the measly 7 that are currently there for a table.  I don't know what
> the UI could look like

I see two requirements:

1. Most commonly used ones should be available without much clicking
2. We should avoid clutter and we should make it searchable

Possible solution would be to keep statistics of template usage and
show top10 in the menu and the last item would be "More..." which
would pop up a dialog with all the template names, descriptions and
perhaps even the template code. Maybe a user could select a template
and see a preview of what it would generate for current metadata item.

Alternatively, instead of top10 used, we could show 10 most recently
used templates.

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[Nando Dessena]

Milan, Michael,

> I completely agree with everything Michael wrote. I don't have much
> to add or remove.

so you both agree to not have any way for the user to access custom
templates ultil a better UI is developed? It might take a bit, since the
current estimate for when that enhanced GUI will be available is...
well... never. :-)

> 1. Most commonly used ones should be available without much clicking
> 2. We should avoid clutter and we should make it searchable
>
> Possible solution would be to keep statistics of template usage and
> show top10 in the menu and the last item would be "More..." which
> would pop up a dialog with all the template names, descriptions and
> perhaps even the template code. Maybe a user could select a template
> and see a preview of what it would generate for current metadata
> item.
>
> Alternatively, instead of top10 used, we could show 10 most recently
> used templates.

Sounds good. Now let's just find a volunteer.
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[Nando Dessena]

Michael,

>> - Split conf files: template caption, menu position and object
>> name/type filter should go with the template in a read-only .conf
>> file, persistent params should go in a different .conf file in some
>> user-writable folder. - In any case stop writing .conf files in the
>> template folders, which may not be writable.
>
> I have committed code to that effect. It's far from perfect,
> especially seeing how far you want to take the feature, but it is
> probably good enough for 0.9.4.

Not sure: moving files here and there between releases (and in this case
also changing a file format) is a pain. I wouldn't release until the
splitting is done. I guess this makes it top priority.

> For all later points yes (for some more so than for others), but
> please not now. Let's stop adding features and get 0.9.4 out first.

Agreed. it seems to me that we absolutely need part of A, part of B and
a sketch of C. Everything else can be postponed.
BTW, using docbook for documentation has proven a bad idea, since nobody
ever bothered to use the necessary tools and as such the documentation
was effectively locked for anyone else. Maybe we should just copy
everything to a wiki. Who needs offline docs nowadays anyway?

> I also don't think the PreferencesDialog in its current form is fit
> as the UI, it's painfully obvious that it was made for a different
> purpose and has been (mis-)appropriated for this feature (to name
> only a few: it isn't centered on the parent frame, it shares size and
> position with the global preferences dialog, the left margin is way
> too large and shows that the tree view is still there but has width
> 0).

I thought size and position were separate and the tree view was made
invisible (I think it was done that way even before I took it for
templates), but maybe my memory is not serving me well. Anyway, I think
the intersection between what it does and its usage with templates is
close to 100%; it just needs a bit of polish and I definately think it's
the right tool for the job. We could do something else but I think it
will end up looking very similar, both implementation- and GUI-wise. And
polish and fixes are always welcome. I don't really know how to code GUI
in wxWidgets and I don't have the time to learn, sorry.

Ciao
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[Milan Babuskov-4]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Nando Dessena <[hidden email]> wrote:
> so you both agree to not have any way for the user to access custom
> templates ultil a better UI is developed?

Well, not really. I think we can use the current preferences dialog
until a better solution is made. The main problem I see is sharing
size and position with main preferences dialog, but I assume this
could be easily fixed. If we are to introduce checkbox-list control
for selection of table columns than big size of the dialog would not
be a problem.

> Sounds good. Now let's just find a volunteer.

Well, I'm not even sure why we want 0.9.4 out soon? I still haven't
found the time to look into some new Firebird 2.5 features and make
sure it's 100% compatible.

--
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[marius adrian popa]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Nando Dessena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Michael,
>
>>> - Split conf files: template caption, menu position and object
>>> name/type filter should go with the template in a read-only .conf
>>> file, persistent params should go in a different .conf file in some
>>> user-writable folder. - In any case stop writing .conf files in the
>>> template folders, which may not be writable.
>>
>> I have committed code to that effect. It's far from perfect,
>> especially seeing how far you want to take the feature, but it is
>> probably good enough for 0.9.4.
>
> Not sure: moving files here and there between releases (and in this case
> also changing a file format) is a pain. I wouldn't release until the
> splitting is done. I guess this makes it top priority.
>
>> For all later points yes (for some more so than for others), but
>> please not now. Let's stop adding features and get 0.9.4 out first.
>
> Agreed. it seems to me that we absolutely need part of A, part of B and
> a sketch of C. Everything else can be postponed.
> BTW, using docbook for documentation has proven a bad idea, since nobody
> ever bothered to use the necessary tools and as such the documentation
> was effectively locked for anyone else. Maybe we should just copy
> everything to a wiki. Who needs offline docs nowadays anyway?

I agree the docbooks and xml were cool 10 years ago but now
we need online colaboration and wiki won. it's easier to write a book
in wiki than
to learn docbook and mess with xml tools
For the manual it can be moved to the wiki were i can add and upload images
Later there we can create other tutorials
Flamerobin changelog i think should be kept as it is

By the way i have upgraded the wiki  (some security bugs fixed) and
also enabled nice url rewriting
http://www.flamerobin.org/dokuwiki/wiki/roadmap

So i think we can start to clean the manual there
http://www.flamerobin.org/dokuwiki/wiki/manual

ps i have used this service to convert to dokuwiki syntax from html
http://toolserver.org/~diberri/cgi-bin/html2wiki/index.cgi

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[Michael Hieke]

On 06.05.2011 10:47, Milan Babuskov wrote:

> Well, I'm not even sure why we want 0.9.4 out soon? I still haven't
> found the time to look into some new Firebird 2.5 features and make
> sure it's 100% compatible.

I just think that it's high time, given that 25 months have passed since
0.9.2 was released.  There have been many changes since then, and people
who don't use or even try the snapshot builds should get a new version
*some time*.  But that's no strong reason, just a feeling.  I use the
latest trunk for work on my main machines anyway.

So we should decide between these three options that I see right now:

1) Give up on the idea of a 0.9.4 release within the next few weeks, but
release when the template feature is finished (for a value of "finished"
that needs to be agreed on).

2) Get the template feature ready in the way Nando has outlined in his
list postings, and release 0.9.4.

3) Remove the sql template commands from the UI and release 0.9.4
without them.

Milan's point re Firebird 2.5 support is very valid, but not a point
against a 0.9.4 release - the current code base is definitely better for
2.5 server use than 0.9.2 is.

Thanks

--
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[Milan Babuskov-4]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 1:10 PM, Michael Hieke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2) Get the template feature ready in the way Nando has outlined in his
> list postings, and release 0.9.4.

I'm fine with this as long as I don't have to dedicate more time than
it takes to produce a build, package it and upload. ;) Sorry for
sounding harsh.

Thanks,

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[Michael Hieke]

Nando,

On 06.05.2011 10:39, Nando Dessena wrote:

> Not sure: moving files here and there between releases (and in this
> case also changing a file format) is a pain. I wouldn't release until
> the splitting is done. I guess this makes it top priority.

I'm happy to work on this if we agree on what needs to be done.

> Agreed. it seems to me that we absolutely need part of A, part of B and
> a sketch of C. Everything else can be postponed.

Agreed.

> I thought size and position were separate and the tree view was made
> invisible (I think it was done that way even before I took it for
> templates), but maybe my memory is not serving me well. Anyway, I
> think the intersection between what it does and its usage with
> templates is close to 100%; it just needs a bit of polish and I
> definately think it's the right tool for the job.

The distinction between single-page and multi-page preference dialogs is
more than a cosmetic issue, and FR has a need for both.  IMHO it goes a
bit beyond polish, but it's nothing some refactoring couldn't cure...
I'll look into it.

Thanks

--
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[Michael Hieke]

On 06.05.2011 11:43, marius adrian popa wrote:

> I agree the docbooks and xml were cool 10 years ago but now we need
> online colaboration and wiki won. it's easier to write a book in wiki
> than to learn docbook and mess with xml tools

Better navigation and image support are pros for a wiki, no offline
version (and thus more difficult translation) are cons.

But are we even sure that the lack of up-to-date documentation has
mostly to do with the tooling?  I for my part hate writing documentation
and surely won't do it in my spare time.

Thanks

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[Nando Dessena]

Milan,

>> so you both agree to not have any way for the user to access
>> custom templates ultil a better UI is developed?
>
> Well, not really. I think we can use the current preferences dialog
> until a better solution is made.

I meant the menu. The dialog is fine as long as the glitches are fixed.
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[Nando Dessena]

Michael,

> 2) Get the template feature ready in the way Nando has outlined in
> his list postings, and release 0.9.4.

my vote goes to this. I'll try to squeeze in some time to get it
decently usable. I'll see what I can do on the docs side as well - I
could  definately use some help there.

> Milan's point re Firebird 2.5 support is very valid, but not a point
> against a 0.9.4 release - the current code base is definitely better
> for 2.5 server use than 0.9.2 is.

Yep. And let's not forget that while it's called 0.9.something people
shouldn't expect it complete. Actually I think FR is the more advanced
0.9.something OS tool I have ever used. :-)

Ciao
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[Nando Dessena]

Michael,

>> I agree the docbooks and xml were cool 10 years ago but now we
>> need online colaboration and wiki won. it's easier to write a book
>> in wiki than to learn docbook and mess with xml tools
>
> Better navigation and image support are pros for a wiki, no offline
> version (and thus more difficult translation) are cons.

Also no svn history. But isn't there a way to get an HTML dump of a wiki
to include in our packages?

> But are we even sure that the lack of up-to-date documentation has
> mostly to do with the tooling?

No, not mostly. But it's part of the problem and it's a part that is
easily solvable. Personally I think I'd find it easier to just edit some
wiki page when I discover a documentation error or lack, than fire the
docbook toolchain.

Having said that, documentation is certainly not going to write itself,
regardless of the tools. :-)
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[Nando Dessena]

Michael,

>> Not sure: moving files here and there between releases (and in
>> this case also changing a file format) is a pain. I wouldn't
>> release until the splitting is done. I guess this makes it top
>> priority.
>
> I'm happy to work on this if we agree on what needs to be done.

I'll look at the current code and go into details shortly.

>> I thought size and position were separate and the tree view was
>> made invisible (I think it was done that way even before I took it
>> for templates), but maybe my memory is not serving me well. Anyway,
>> I think the intersection between what it does and its usage with
>> templates is close to 100%; it just needs a bit of polish and I
>> definately think it's the right tool for the job.
>
> The distinction between single-page and multi-page preference dialogs
> is more than a cosmetic issue, and FR has a need for both. IMHO it
> goes a bit beyond polish, but it's nothing some refactoring couldn't
> cure... I'll look into it.

That would be great. I can imagine very complex templates that might
need multiple pages of options, so I wouldn't do two different dialogs
(unless a factory is used to instantiate them based on the contents of a
confdef).
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[marius adrian popa]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:32 PM, Michael Hieke <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 06.05.2011 11:43, marius adrian popa wrote:
>
>> I agree the docbooks and xml were cool 10 years ago but now we need
>> online colaboration and wiki won. it's easier to write a book in wiki
>> than to learn docbook and mess with xml tools
>
> Better navigation and image support are pros for a wiki, no offline versions
I will check how can be improved in this area ,
we can have offline docs created from docuwiki can be exported in html
format for sections : manual
I'm thinking that if  manual+images will grow will be a separated
package flamerobin-docs (I'm thinking about what will be in debian for
example)
> (and thus more difficult translation) are cons.
http://www.dokuwiki.org/localization#translation_guidelines
translation is a lot easier for each language we will have a page
eg manual_cn , manual_br , manual_ro ....
and we can give access to that pages to the dedicated translators
>
> But are we even sure that the lack of up-to-date documentation has
> mostly to do with the tooling?  I for my part hate writing documentation
> and surely won't do it in my spare time.
Yes i know but there are other contributors that can help us without
knowing wx/c++/firebird api
but they can create tips / install guides .../ improve documentation

>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Michael Hieke
>
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[marius adrian popa]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 3:02 PM, Nando Dessena <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Michael,
>
>> 2) Get the template feature ready in the way Nando has outlined in
>> his list postings, and release 0.9.4.
>
> my vote goes to this. I'll try to squeeze in some time to get it
> decently usable. I'll see what I can do on the docs side as well - I
> could  definately use some help there.
What it needs to be done ?, I guess preparing the list of changes
updating the manual with the new features , i will try to add images
>
>> Milan's point re Firebird 2.5 support is very valid, but not a point
>> against a 0.9.4 release - the current code base is definitely better
>> for 2.5 server use than 0.9.2 is.
>
> Yep. And let's not forget that while it's called 0.9.something people
> shouldn't expect it complete. Actually I think FR is the more advanced
> 0.9.something OS tool I have ever used. :-)

Maybe we shoud call it 9.x :) if we take the google way of numbering chrome
or we can call it alpha forever like it was in gmail

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[Dalton Calford-2]

I will document it if I can convince someone to add a feature or three.......

On 6 May 2011 08:08, Nando Dessena <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Michael,
>
>>> I agree the docbooks and xml were cool 10 years ago but now we
>>> need online colaboration and wiki won. it's easier to write a book
>>> in wiki than to learn docbook and mess with xml tools
>>
>> Better navigation and image support are pros for a wiki, no offline
>> version (and thus more difficult translation) are cons.
>
> Also no svn history. But isn't there a way to get an HTML dump of a wiki
> to include in our packages?
>
>> But are we even sure that the lack of up-to-date documentation has
>> mostly to do with the tooling?
>
> No, not mostly. But it's part of the problem and it's a part that is
> easily solvable. Personally I think I'd find it easier to just edit some
> wiki page when I discover a documentation error or lack, than fire the
> docbook toolchain.
>
> Having said that, documentation is certainly not going to write itself,
> regardless of the tools. :-)
> --
> Nando Dessena
>
>
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[Nando Dessena]

Marius,

> What it needs to be done ?, I guess preparing the list of changes
> updating the manual with the new features , i will try to add images

yes - particularly add a section (most probably a separate page) with
template documentation, such as all the commands in
TemplateProcessor::processCommand() and other places.
--
Nando Dessena


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[Milan Babuskov-4]

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 1:56 PM, Nando Dessena <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Milan,
>
>>> so you both agree to not have any way for the user to access
>>> custom templates ultil a better UI is developed?
>>
>> Well, not really. I think we can use the current preferences dialog
>> until a better solution is made.
>
> I meant the menu. The dialog is fine as long as the glitches are fixed.

IMHO, menu can go as it is now as well. Just because a power user
might create dozens of templates, we don't have a power user that has
done it yet. 0.9.4. will be a chance for people to discover
templating; by the time users start having a lot of templates, 0.9.6
will probably be released with a new UI.

--
Milan Babuskov
http://www.guacosoft.com

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